Legislature(1995 - 1996)
04/12/1996 04:24 PM Senate RES
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SENATE RESOURCES COMMITTEE
April 12, 1996
4:24 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Loren Leman, Chairman
Senator Robin Taylor
Senator Lyman Hoffman
COMMITTEE MEMBERS ABSENT
Senator Drue Pearce, Vice Chairman
Senator Steve Frank
Senator Rick Halford
Senator Georgianna Lincoln
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 59(RES)
"An Act relating to raffles and auctions of certain permits to take
big game; and providing for an effective date."
HOUSE BILL NO. 329 am
"An Act providing for restitution to the state for the unlawful
taking of game."
CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 547(RES) am
"An Act relating to a four-year moratorium on entry into Southeast
Alaska dive fisheries; and providing for an effective date."
CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 265(FSH)
"An Act relating to the export of live dungeness crab."
CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 447(RES)
"An Act relating to traditional means of access for traditional
outdoor uses and to the classification and the sale, lease, or
other disposal of state land, water, or land and water."
SENATE BILL NO. 285
"An Act relating to management of discrete salmon stocks and to a
salmon management assessment; and providing for an effective date."
SENATE BILL NO. 318
"An Act authorizing, approving, and ratifying the amendment of
Northstar Unit oil and gas leases between the State of Alaska and
BP Exploration (Alaska) Inc.; and providing for an effective date."
PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION
HB 59 - See Resources minutes dated 4/10/96.
HB 329 - See Resources minutes dated 4/3/96, 4/10/96.
HB 547 - No previous action to record.
HB 265 - No previous action to record.
HB 447 - No previous action to record.
SB 285 - See Resources minutes dated 3/13/96.
SB 318 - See Resources minutes dated 3/29/96, 3/30/96, 4/3/96,
4/11/96.
WITNESS REGISTER
Representative Bill Williams, Co-Chair
House Resources Committee
State Capitol
Juneau, AK 99801-1182
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented overviews on CSHB 547(RES) am
and CSHB 265(FSH)
Frank Homan, Commissioner
Commercial Fisheries Entry Commission
Department of Fish & Game
8800 Glacier Highway, Suite 109
Juneau, AK 99801-8079
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of CSHB 547(RES) am
Jim Dennis
P.O. Box 591
Craig, AK 99921
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports CSHB 547(RES) am
Andy Kittams
P.O. Box 1544
Petersburg, AK 99833
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of CSHB 547(RES) am
Lauren Rogers
P.O. Box 842
Wrangell, AK 99929
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports CSHB 547(RES) am
Matt Donohoe
P.O. Box 3114
Sitka, AK 99835
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposes CSHB 547(RES) am
Larry Trani
2008 HPR
Sitka, AK 99835
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of CSHB 547(RES) am
James LeCrone
P.O. Box 541
Sitka, AK 99835
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports CSHB 547(RES) am
Januse Kunat
P.O. Box 2785
Sitka, AK 99835
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports CSHB 547(RES) am
Raymond Campbell
11 Creek St., #3
Ketchikan, AK 99926
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposes CSHB 547(RES) am
Pat Cassin
P.O. Box 109
Ketchikan, AK 99926
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports CSHB 547(RES) am
Tim Foley
429 Country Hill Drive
Roseburg, OR 97470
POSITION STATEMENT: Has concerns with CSHB 547(RES) am
Jeff Martin
P.O. Box 268
Metlakatla, AK 99926
POSITION STATEMENT: Suggested CSHB 547(RES) am be amended to
include test fishery
Clay Bezenek
1617 Water St.
Ketchikan, AK 99901
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports CSHB 547(RES) am
Scott Thomas
945 Lincoln
Ketchikan, AK 99901
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of CSHB 547(RES) am
Duane King
P.O. Box 7591
Ketchikan, AK 99901
POSITION STATEMENT: Basically supports CSHB 547(RES) am
Eric Hamilton
P.O. Box 5838
Ketchikan, AK 99901
POSITION STATEMENT: Has concerns with CSHB 547(RES) am
Eric Woelfel
Metlakatla, AK 99926
POSITION STATEMENT: Would like to see test fishery included in
CSHB 547(RES) am
Ms. Bobbie Ivanoff
P.O. Box 2394
Kodiak, AK 99615
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposes CSHB 547(RES) am
Norm Degner
P.O. Box 2099
Wrangell, AK 99929
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports CSHB 547(RES) am
Ed Gray
P.O. Box 6328
Sitka, AK 99835
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of CSHB 547(RES) am
Steve LaCroix, Member of Board of Directors
Southeast Alaska Dive Harvest Association
(Home address not available)
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of CSHB 547(RES) am
Larry Cotter
Ocean Fresh Seafoods
1402 Side Court
Juneau, AK 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: CSHB 547(RES) am should include test fishery
participants
Steven Daugherty, Assistant Attorney General
Natural Resources Section
Department of Law
P.O. Box 110300
Juneau, AK 99811-0300
POSITION STATEMENT: Offered information on CSHB 265(FSH)
Captain Richard Graham
Division of Fish & Wildlife Protection
Department of Public Safety
5700 E. Tudor Road
Anchorage, AK 99507-1225
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of CSHB 265(FSH)
David Stancliff, Staff to Representative Beverly Masek
State Capitol
Juneau, AK 99801-1182
POSITION STATEMENT: Offered information on CSHB 447(RES)
Roy Burkhart
Box 204
Willow, AK 99688
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of CSHB 447(RES)
and SB 285
Leonard Haire
Box 879302
Wasilla, AK 99687
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports CSHB 447(RES) and SB 285
Sam McDowell
326 E. 23rd
Anchorage, AK 99503
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of CSHB 447(RES)
and SB 285
Dale Bondurant
HC 1, Box 1197
Soldotna, AK 99669
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of CSHB 447(RES)
and SB 285
Jeff Parker
500 L St., #502
Anchorage, AK 99501
POSITION STATEMENT: Suggested amending CSHB 447(RES)
Dan Castle, President
Southeast Alaska Seiners Association
P.O. Box 9172
Ketchikan, AK 99901
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposes SB 285
Dan Winn
P.O. Box 1272
Homer, AK 99603
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to SB 285
Ms. Liz Cabrera, Director
Petersburg Vessel Owners Association
P.O. Box 232
Petersburg, AK 99833
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to SB 285
Leonard Efta
P.O. Box 353
Kenai, AK 99611
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposes SB 285
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 96-52, SIDE A
Number 001
CHAIRMAN LEMAN called the Senate Resources Committee meeting to
order at 4:24 p.m. Present were the Chairman and Senator Hoffman.
He stated the committee still didn't have a quorum because of
conflicts with other committees, and if a quorum was not
established later in the day, the bills would be held over to the
next day for final action.
CSHB 59(RES) RAFFLE OR AUCTION OF BIG GAME PERMITS
CHAIRMAN LEMAN brought HB 59 before the committee. However, there
being no witnesses wishing to testify on the bill, he stated it
would be set aside until a quorum was established.
HB 329 am RESTITUTION FOR CERTAIN GAME VIOLATIONS
CHAIRMAN LEMAN brought HB 329 am before the committee. There being
no witnesses present to testify on the bill, it was set aside until
a quorum was established.
Number 050
CSHB 547(RES) am MORATORIUM ON S.E. DIVE FISHERIES
CHAIRMAN LEMAN brought CSHB 547(RES) am before the committee as the
next order of business.
REPRESENTATIVE BILL WILLIAMS , Co-chair of the House Resources
Committee, explained the legislation will place a four-year
moratorium on entrance into the sea cucumber, sea urchin, geoduck
and abalone fisheries in Southeast Alaska. The increased interest
and effort in the Southeast Alaska dive fishery has caused the
number of divers to be precariously high at the end of 1995. Also,
there has been more than a keen interest in the dive fisheries by
residents and nonresidents alike.
The purpose of the moratorium is to set aside a period of time for
examination of each aspect of the Southeast Alaska dive fisheries.
The Department of Fish and Game has been gathering assessments and
management data on these fisheries. He said a moratorium on the
new entry into Southeast Alaska dive fisheries is necessary to
allow a proper review analysis of these data to ensure a continuing
viable fishery.
Representative Williams said the Southeast Alaska sea urchin
fishery cannot be open due to a lack of research and management.
A large number of new divers interested in this fishery would be
difficult to management and may threaten the sustained yield of the
sea urchin resource. The moratorium will provide all interested
parties the opportunity to develop a long-term management and
research plan for this developing fishery.
Representative Williams stated these valuable fishery resources
need special attention, and HB 547 will provide the mechanism for
the development of a sustainable fisheries which will provide
economic opportunities for the participants, the southeast
communities and the state. He urged the committee's support of the
legislation.
Number 101
FRANK HOMAN , Commercial Fisheries Entry Commission, Department of
Fish & Game, credited Representative Williams, Senator Taylor and
Representative Mackie for getting the divers in Southeast Alaska
together on this issue. He said it was one of the first times in
the Commission's history where a majority of the divers were in
agreement on a bill and came to the legislature and the commission
for some assistance.
Mr. Homan said the need for action this year is try to cap the
effort in these dive fisheries, and because of the complex system
that the Limited Entry Commission has as subject to moratoriums,
they couldn't implement a moratorium within the time frame that's
needed. In fact, the commission cannot implement a moratorium on
their own initiative; it has to come from the commissioner of fish
and game, through the Board of Fisheries, to the commission.
Mr. Homan expressed the commission's pleasure at the cohesion
amongst the divers and their taking the initiative to come to the
Legislature for its assistance.
Number 118
CHAIRMAN LEMAN stated the committee would take testimony from
individuals waiting to testify on HB 547 at various sites on the
Legislative Teleconference Network.
JIM DENNIS , testifying from Craig, stated that he and 15 other
people in attendance in Craig support the bill and the amendment
that was added to it on the House floor.
ANDY KITTAMS , testifying from Petersburg and representing the
Petersburg Chapter of the Southeast Alaska Harvest Dive
Association, stated their support of CSHB 547(RES) am. They
believe it is a good thing for the dive fisheries, as well as the
fishermen. There has been a substantial increase in the fisheries
in the last few years, and this appears to be the only to way cap
the level so that the people currently in the fishery have the
chance of making some money.
LAUREN ROGERS , a Wrangell diver testifying from Petersburg, voiced
his support for CSHB 547(RES) am. Although he hates to see limited
entry in the fishery, he sees no other choice. He said if
something isn't done, the situation is only going to get worse. Of
the 533 people that are going to be in this moratorium, 501 are sea
cucumber divers. He noted Department of Fish and Game statistics
show the average weight of a sea cucumber is decreasing, and the
quota for each area that rotates through on a three-year basis is
declining. So even if it stays at this number of people, there
will continue to be a decline in the economics of this fishery, the
department will probably have to come up with a more conservative
scheme.
MATT DONOHOE , testifying from Sitka, said he has been fishing in
that area for the past 20 years, although he does not participate
in the dive fishery. He stated he is opposed to language in the
bill which preempts an entry into the sea urchin fishery. He said
it is a fishery that doesn't exist in any numbers, and to put a
limited entry program on a fishery that isn't there yet is setting
a dangerous precedent in the state.
Number 269
LARRY TRANI , President of the Sitka Chapter of the Alaska Harvest
Divers Association testifying from Sitka, stated CSHB 547(RES) am
is a compromise bill. The original version of the legislation was
accepted by all the divers in Southeast Alaska, as was the language
in the current version. He said any further modification to the
bill will seriously jeopardize the near unanimous support it now
has, and he urged it be passed in its current version. He has
watched the dive industry grow since 1970, and it is now to the
point where few people can make any meaningful amount of money and
the number of participants has the potential of threatening the
stocks. He added that the dive industry has done everything it can
to slow the fisheries down, as is apparent by the self-imposed
regulations they are now diving under.
JAMES LECRONE of Sitka stated his support for CSHB 547(RES) am and
urged its passage. He also stated this is a moratorium, not a
limited entry program. It will allow the state a period of time to
examine the fishery without new entries.
JANUSE KUNAT of Sitka voiced his agreement with Mr. Trani's
testimony. He added that the bill is for Alaskan divers to protect
the resources. He urged of HB 547 in its current form.
[TESTIMONY BY RAYMOND CAMPBELL HAS BEEN TRANSCRIBED VERBATIM]
RAYMOND CAMPBELL : My name is Raymond Campbell. I've been an
Alaskan resident for 19 years, and I've been a harvest diver for
eight years. I oppose Bill 547; the way it stands it right now
there's a lot of problems with it. Excuse the pun, but it smells
fishy.
I've been diving urchins for three years. I've participated in the
test fishery down in Metlakatla, and I'm going to be excluded from
diving in the moratorium so a group of guys who have never touched
an urchin before are going to be allowed to fish in the moratorium.
You know, its put me out in the cold, and I see no reason for it.
My permit says "statewide" on it. I've fished all over the state,
and the way this thing is written, I'm out in the cold.
I've come down here and I've bought a boat specifically to be a
diver in southeast, and there's just some real problems with it.
I'm getting cut out so that a bunch of people can get in with this
amendment that they put to the bill. With this participating five
consecutive years, there is going to be people participating in the
abalone, or there are going to be people allowed to participate in
the abalone fishery that have never done so in the past, in the
geoduck fishy that have never done so in the past, and in the
urchin fishery that have never done so in the past. And people
like me who have got landings in abalone, cucumbers and the dive
urchins and have pioneered the fishery are going to be out.
I thinks it's a pretty all for one group of fishermen kind of bill,
and like I said, I oppose it. With the way it stands now, I oppose
it. Now, I do understand there are problems, but it seems like
there's been a lot of people that are managing these fisheries that
have been dragging their feet on the way they've been managing it,
and I think there's other ways of managing it.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN : Where have you been diving?
RAYMOND CAMPBELL : I've dived in Kodiak, and in the late eighties
I started diving urchins in Kodiak. I've dived in Southeast in the
early nineties for cucumbers. I've dived in Southeast in '95 for
dungeness. I've dived in this urchin fishery, in the test fishery
down in Metlakatla. I've even dived in Florida for sponges, but I
am an Alaskan resident for the last 20 years. Like I say, I'm out
in the cold, and I feel like I've pioneered this urchin fishery,
and to have me out in the cold so a group of guys who have never
touched an urchin can have it to themselves for four years is
rotten.
I also don't like the way this has gone through. It got proposed
on the 25th of March and it went through the House lickety split.
Like I said, I can understand the problems with this fishery and I
can understand that a lot of people want to do something with it,
but the way this bill is now, there's too many problems with it.
What they're doing -- by doing it only with Southeast, they're
going to take all the problems that they have in Southeast and
they're going to move them north and west, and the problems that
they have down here are just going to move to Kodiak and Cook Inlet
and the small dive fisheries they have up there. So like I said,
I'm against this bill.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN : I think this question is probably better directed
to Representative Williams. Is it true that, as Mr. Campbell is
saying, that if you--and it looks like on top of page three--if you
have commercially harvested sea cucumber, abalone, geoduck or sea
urchin, any of those, then you qualify for the permit in all of
them? Is that correct?
REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS : That's the way it was read, yeah. During
the five-year calendars of '91...
REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE : That particular section means that if you
have participated in each of the years, which means in five
consecutive years, and that was the question that I was going to
ask the witness. He stated that he has been fishing the last eight
years, and the way this bill is that if you fished either in the
sea cucumber, abalone, geoduck or urchin fishery in the last five
years, then you would qualify under the bill.
RAYMOND CAMPBELL : In Southeast. Some of my deliveries have been
in Kodiak and the Kodiak cucumber fishery. The years that I fished
Southeast were '91 and '92. Then in '93 I fished crab most of the
year, and the only harvest diving I did in '93 was in Florida for
sponges for a short trip down there. So although I did participate
in harvest diving in the year '93, I didn't harvest dive in the
state of Alaska because I was crab fishing. I fished king crab and
salmon and barradie crab and opies. I'd also like to say that
commercial fishing has been 90 percent of my income. I've been
doing it for 19 years except for about a six-month stint in the mid
eighties that I worked on a tug boat, but commercial fishing is my
livelihood and I've been getting cut out on these moratoriums and
limited entry permits ever since I've been fishing. I did get a
big 150 pound halibut IFQ, although in the 80's sometimes the
halibut fishing was the majority of my income, now I'm allowed to
go catch a 150 pound halibut. That halibut IFQ program was a shaft
for the Alaskans, the same with other things. I've started out
getting cut out of a hand troll permit down here in Southeast; I've
gotten cut out of numerous fisheries, and I'm a full-time
fisherman.
The other thing I see is I see people fishing not to catch fish,
but to get permits, and I thinks that's one of the reasons you've
got so many divers down here. People are saying, "Well, it's not
economically feasible to dive, but if I don't dive, I'll miss a
year and I'll get cut out of a permit." When they changed the laws
in southeast, changed the seasons from three days to one day, I
decided to fish in Kodiak, and now it turns out I should have come
down here and hit a resource that was already hurting, simply not
because I needed to make a living, simply because for the permit
and for the right to be able to fish on it in this moratorium.
Like I said, I understand the problems, but I think this bill
stinks. It smells like rotten fish.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN : How many other divers from other areas of Alaska
who have harvested in all five of those years do you think would be
similarly situated to you.
RAYMOND CAMPBELL : I don't have those particular numbers with me,
but I do know there are people in the room that...
CHAIRMAN LEMAN : Mr. Homan, do you have any idea?
FRANK HOMAN : I don't have the answer, but we have the data to get
the answer.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN : Okay, I'd like to see that, you know, if there are
some who maybe went somewhere else in Alaska because of the
resource and would get cut out, but who have a consistent pattern
of harvest. It may be worth looking at. Is that something you
discussed, Representative Williams in the other committee?
REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS : Yes, we've been trying to work with the
fishermen on this bill. I do sympathize with the witness right
now, and I think we were trying to work something out for people
like him on this, and hopefully we'll get it taken care of by the
time it gets to the next committee.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN : Maybe we can take care of it in this committee.
It's probably where we want to do the work on this.
RAYMOND CAMPBELL : The other point I'd like to make is there are
some divers that participated in the past fishery that are going to
be cut out, and I feel those guys are the guys that were pioneering
this urchin fishery. I'm participating in the test fishery and we
had to sign a release that said participating in the test fishery
will exclude us from -- well, not being any criteria for being
included in any moratorium or limited entry scheme. I signed that
when it was time to go fishing. I didn't even have any
understanding that that was part of the deal when I came down, and
I really wonder about the wisdom of cutting people out who pioneer
a fishery from the fishery, in one that doesn't even exist.
[END OF VERBATIM TESTIMONY]
Number 425
PAT CASSIN , a licensed sea urchin diver testifying from Ketchikan,
said under the current version of HB 547, he will qualify to dive
for sea urchins because of participation in the Sitka fisheries.
Also, under HB 547, participants in three other fisheries will
qualify to dive for sea urchins. He questioned if it was the
intent of the Legislature that through this bill the participants
who qualify under the three separate fisheries be given a higher
priority classification for entry permits than those who have
actually fished for sea urchins.
TIM FOLEY , testifying from Ketchikan, stated he has a statewide
Alaska sea urchin permit. He is currently in the test fishery, and
he pointed out that he and others put all of their time and effort
in that test fishery, not participating much in the other dive
fisheries in Southeast Alaska, and through this legislation they
are not being recognized as doing so.
JEFF MARTIN , a diver in the test fishery testifying from Ketchikan,
stated he dives for sea urchins professionally for a living. He
believes that he has done a lot in this test fishery to make it
happen, and he wants the chance to be a part of the moratorium and
be licensed for the fishery. He said CSHB 547(RES) am is leaving
him out because he did not fish the other fisheries. He estimated
there are approximately 15 divers in the test fishery who will not
qualify under the language in the bill. He requested that the bill
be rewritten so that the people who have made this sea urchin
fishery happen have a chance to stay here and make a living at it.
CLAY BEZENEK , testifying from Ketchikan, stated he supports CSHB
547(RES) am. He said it is a fairly complex issue, but it
basically all comes down to dollars and cents. The participation
level for all the fisheries has reached a saturation level and the
legislation was well written to deal with this situation. He
supports the bill, as written, and he believes the other problems
can be dealt with by the Limited Entry Commission at a later date.
Number 483
SCOTT THOMAS , representing the Southeast Alaska Harvest Divers
Association and testifying from Ketchikan, stated the organization
took a vote and approximately 90 percent of its membership supports
CSHB 547(RES) am. He said commercial fishing is his sole source of
income, and for the past 10 years he has been the owner/operator of
a southeast seine operation and has fished in numerous fisheries,
including the dive harvest of sea cucumbers and geoducks. In the
three years he has been involved in the dive fishery, he has seen
the participation increase dramatically, and the past year's
participation has reached a level to where these fisheries are no
longer feasible. Passage of the legislation will enable the
effective management of the fishery, and it will provide the
opportunity to the fishermen who have already made commitments to
the industry.
DUANE KING , testifying from Ketchikan, said he basically supports
the legislation although he sees a problem with it. Many of the
persons who would qualify for a sea urchin permit under the bill
have never participated in a sea urchin fishery in Southeast
Alaska. If everyone who ends up with one of the other dive permits
also receives a sea urchin license, the number of participants will
be unmanageable. He believes many of these persons will only
pursue the sea urchin license just to sell out as soon as they can
to the highest bidder. He suggested a fair and manageable fix
would be to give Limited Entry Commission the option of using
participation in the sea urchin fishery during the moratorium.
ERIC HAMILTON , testifying from Ketchikan, stated he built his boat
specifically for the dive fisheries and focused on sea urchin. He
is presently diving in the sea urchin test fishery, and he believes
sea urchin divers should be recognized for the contribution to
starting a fishery. He noted that under the current language of
the bill, a minimal landing of cucumbers, geoducks or abalone
entitles the purchase of a sea urchin permit, thus, even a two-
pound landing of cucumbers or geoducks, entitles the diver to a sea
urchin permit, but it offers no recognition of the thousands of
dive hours during the sea urchin test fishery.
Number 553
ERIC WOELFEL , a life-long Alaskan fisherman testifying from
Ketchikan, stated he participates exclusively in dive fisheries,
and he has fished in Southeast Alaska, Cook Inlet and Kodiak for
cucumbers. He, too, is currently participating in the sea urchin
test fishery. He has not always worked in southeast; because of
the limited number of days he often found it more financially
lucrative to participate in the fisheries up north. He would like
to see those landings count towards qualifying for a southeast
permit. He also supports the participation in the test fishery as
qualifying individuals for the urchin moratorium.
MS. BOBBIE IVANOFF , testifying from Kodiak, voiced her objection to
the current version of HB 547 because she thinks it is only
beneficial to an exclusive group of divers. If there is a
moratorium, it should include all of the Alaska divers. She
questioned how a moratorium can be put on a fishery that really
isn't existing yet.
Number 576
NORM DEGNER , testifying from Wrangell, said he can see the point of
the Ketchikan divers who have been diving for sea urchin, but Ocean
Fresh had the right to pick who they wanted. He noted there are
several divers in Wrangell, including himself, that ran up large
phone bills calling Ocean Fresh to try to be part of the test
fishery. If that was counted for qualification into the
moratorium, then there would be a lot of divers who were left out,
not because they didn't want to dive, but because there just wasn't
a place for them. He said the members of the divers association in
Wrangell would like to see HB 547 passed in its current form.
ED GRAY , testifying from Sitka, voiced his support for CSHB
547(RES) am. He has been a diver in that area for six years, and
he got into the other fisheries because of the decreasing in dive
time. He recognizes the need for a moratorium for a more
controlled situation. He also noted that he and several other
divers made an effort to be part of the test fishery, but they were
excluded from that contract. He said those people involved in that
program were aware that it was a private contract and it would not
qualify them in the future for a moratorium.
TAPE 92-52, SIDE B
Number 001
STEVE LACROIX , a member of the Board of Directors for the Southeast
Alaska Dive Harvest Association testifying in Juneau, stated the
organization has over 50 active harvest divers, as well as many
associate members from the Ketchikan business community who are
helping promote the dive industry for their community. A poll was
taken of the membership on their support for CSHB 547(RES) am and
they had almost unanimous support for it. He said the few divers
who have expressed opposition to the bill are primarily not
Alaskans who have come here and participated in a test urchin
fishery and have taken opportunities away from Alaskans. He said
this bill will stop them and will stop hundreds of other people
like them from taking these opportunities away from Alaskans. He
noted the new participation in these fisheries comes primarily from
non fishermen, out-of-state professionals, permit hunters, and, in
this case, sport divers, which is bad for the industry. He said
this bill doesn't just help a few fishermen get permits; it creates
a platform for the development of a $25 million a year potential
industry in Southeast Alaska that these communities need.
Number 075
LARRY COTTER , testified in Juneau on behalf of Ocean Fresh
Seafoods, which is the company that has been conducting the test
fishery for urchins in Southeast Alaska out of Metlakatla. He said
there is no question that a moratorium is appropriate and necessary
in the geoduck, sea cumber and abalone fisheries. One might raise
the question of whether or not a moratorium is necessary in
urchins, and, Ocean Fresh Seafoods, at first, questioned whether
there might be better ways to address the furor or over
participation in that fishery as it develops during the next few
years. However, Ocean Fresh Seafoods is willing to go forth and
support the moratorium in the urchin fisheries and to move forward
and start trying to focus on an appropriate way to manage these
fisheries so that they be operated on a year-round basis so that
the true social and economic benefits can be returned to all
Alaskans. He said this has been the goal of Ocean Fresh Seafoods
from the beginning.
Mr. Cotter said that after listening to the testimony, he believes
the bill should take into account those participants in the test
fishery who otherwise do not qualify. There are about 15 of those
individuals who do not qualify for a moratorium permit, and about
half of those individuals are Alaskan residents. The total number
of people that would receive a license under HB 547 is in excess of
500, so he fails to see how 15 people, seven or eight of them who
are Alaskans, will have any meaningful adverse impact upon this
industry or the other Alaskans and non Alaskans who are going to be
participating.
Mr. Cotter said the test fishery was the result of three years of
effort by Ocean Fresh Seafoods to try and convince the state to
begin to open a commercial sea urchin fishery in Southeast Alaska.
Finally the Alaska Department of Fish & Game went out to public bid
to seek a company that was willing to pay the state's cost up front
in exchange for the right to harvest urchins so that the state
could assess the resource and determine the life history perimeters
and other things necessary to allow a commercial fishery to occur.
The company has established for the very first time that a sea
urchin fishery in Southeast Alaska can be economically viable.
Number 125
REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS asked if the 15 individuals in the test
fishery have participated in any other dive fishery in the state.
LARRY COTTER responded that he knows one of them has, but he is not
sure about the rest of them. He added that the company encouraged
those divers not to participate in the other dive fisheries because
they felt they shouldn't be doing that as long as they were
participating in the test fishery. REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS related
that he has information that of those individuals who participated
in the test fishery, 16 were non residents and two were residents.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN commented that what the bill is trying to do is show
a history of participation over several years, and there may be
other individuals like Mr. Campbell who have had a long history of
participation.
Number 200
REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE said he, too, was concerned about Mr.
Campbell's testimony because he has been an Alaskan and he has
participated in some of the fisheries, and he thinks that needs to
be looked at. However, that also opens up the question of what
the numbers would be if other people who have participated in other
parts of the state are allowed into the fishery. This dive fishery
is continuing to expand and, unless the state stops it at 500 at
this point in time, next year there could be 800 people involved.
The question is whether or not the resource can withstand that sort
of assault by more divers coming, whether they are from out of
state or they are residents of the state.
LARRY COTTER emphasized that Ocean Fresh Seafoods supports the
moratorium, whether or not the divers from the test fishery are
included.
There being no further witnesses to testify on CSHB 547(RES) am,
CHAIRMAN LEMAN closed the public hearing, and stated the bill would
be set aside for further work to see if some of the concerns can be
resolved.
Number 260
CSHB 265(FSH) EXPORT OF DUNGENESS CRAB
CHAIRMAN LEMAN brought CSHB 265(FSH) before the committee as the
next order of business.
REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS , prime sponsor of HB 265, said the bill was
introduced in response to constituents who are struggling to
develop a live crab market in British Columbia or the Lower 48.
Current law provides that if an out-of-state live dungeness market
is established, the product must be shipped by air transportation,
which is tricky and, in many cases, cost prohibitive. There are
frequent weather delay problems and other forms of delays
associated with flying in Alaska.
CSHB 265(FSH) will remove the air transportation requirement when
shipping live dungeness crab out of state. The bill goes further
by answering concerns about marine toxins, particularly PSP, by not
allowing surface transportation to occur in areas where the
Department of Environmental Conservation is requiring the testing
of crab for marine toxins.
Representative Williams said the legislation will allow fishermen
to expand their markets and provide an opportunity for
diversification at this time.
Number 310
STEVEN DAUGHERTY , Assistant Attorney General, Natural Resources
Section, Department of Law, stated the department's concerns with
the original bill have been greatly reduced both because of changes
made in the committee substitute and because they have learned that
the underlying statute (AS 16.10.240) serves the purpose of making
commercial fishing regulations, including size and sex limitations
and reporting requirements enforceable.
Mr. Daugherty said it has been brought to the department's
attention that the underlying statute generally prohibiting
transportation of live king, tanner and dungeness crab, except via
air freight after prepackaging, helps prevent vessels fishing in
isolated areas from retaining undersize or female crab in violation
of state regulations. It has also been brought to their attention
that these enforcement concerns are much less significant in the
dungeness fisheries because they do not generally occur in isolated
deep water areas, and it much easier for enforcement officers to
board and inspect vessels fishing for dungeness than for king and
tanner crab; thus, the underlying statute will continue to serve a
compelling purpose even if export of dungeness is allowed. He also
noted that by prohibiting export by surface transportation during
periods in which PSP testing is required, the bill will continue to
allow the statute to serve public health purposes.
In his closing comments, Mr. Daugherty said that after reviewing
the committee substitute and discussing the enforcement purposes of
the underlying statute with staff from Fish & Game and Fish &
Wildlife, the department does not believe that CSHB 265(FSH) would
significantly increase the risk of a successful challenge to the
underlying statute.
Number 355
CAPTAIN RICHARD GRAHAM , Division of Fish & Wildlife Protection,
Department of Public Safety, testifying from Anchorage, added that
the legislation will allow a vessel to take live crab directly from
the fishing grounds out of state waters, waters for which the state
has jurisdiction. This particular statue will require them to
perhaps conduct more inspections at sea than they do at this point,
but the dungeness fishery is a small fishery and somewhat isolated
to Southeast Alaska, so this additional requirement on their part
to conduct inspections on the fishing grounds would not be that
much of a burden.
Captain Graham noted there is a regulation in the Alaska
Administrative Code that requires all vessels that leave state
waters with what is referred to as either raw or unprocessed
product, to check out with the Department of Fish and Game and
complete fish tickets. However, he is confident that some type of
arrangement could be made between the department and these
departing vessels to ensure that they are in compliance with that
particular regulation.
Number 386
CHAIRMAN LEMAN stated CSHB 265(FSH) would be set aside until a
quorum of the committee was established.
CSHB 447(RES) PROTECT ACCESS FOR TRADIT'NL OUTDOOR USES
CHAIRMAN LEMAN brought CSHB 447(RES) before the committee.
DAVID STANCLIFF , staff to Representative Masek, who is the prime
sponsor of HB 477, said the legislation is very similar to SB 230
(MANAGEMENT OF PARKS & RECREATIONAL AREAS) which was passed out by
the committee in March. In HB 477 a change was made to indicate
that this particular legislation does not affect private property.
Another change clarifies that where there is a development interest
occurring, the people who are developing the leases or the interest
have the ability to direct access through those properties should
a conflict occur. He said it would basically be the same bill as
SB 230 without those two changes.
ROY BURKHART , a 36-year resident of Alaska testifying from the Mat-
Su LIO, stated he supports the legislation because he thinks it is
important that Alaskans be allowed to use the resource that belongs
to them. He said there will probably be testimony that there is a
conflict between user groups, and then DNR or the administration
will try to get people to compromise so that this conflict is kept
to a minimum. He said he would like to know how many acres in
Alaska and how many miles of waterways are restricted to motorized
use. He would also like to know how many miles of waterways and
how many acres are restricted where the non-motorized users can't
use them. He thinks that information will show that there isn't
any compromise made at all. When there is a conflict, the
motorized units are restricted; it's never the non-motorized users.
He said it is very important that the Legislature, which is the
voice of the people, make these decisions because he has witnessed
three administrations making the same decisions and the input from
the public doesn't seem to make any difference.
LEONARD HAIRE , a 26-year resident of Alaska testifying from the
Mat-Su LIO, said he thinks the important point to emphasize is that
the control, right now, is not with the people. The power is in
procedures and not in the results. He urged passage of CSHB
447(RES).
Number 530
SAM MCDOWELL , testifying from Kenai, said he is delighted the
legislation provides that it will take legislative approval if the
commissioner of natural resources intends to block access to our
common property of natural resources. He added it must be per the
Alaska Constitution.
DALE BONDURANT , testifying from Kenai in support of CSHB 447(RES),
pointed out that the Alaska Constitution states that no resident of
Alaska or citizen of the United States shall be denied access to
public and navigable waters. He said now is the time to make sure
that trails and access are provided from the state lands to the
federal lands before the state lands become public lands. He added
that he thinks Commissioner Shively of the Department of Natural
Resources is not meeting his obligation to make sure that there is
the access to these lands.
Number 582
JEFF PARKER , testifying from Anchorage, said neither the Alaska
Sport Fishing Association or Trout Unlimited have had time to study
or take a position on CSHB 447(RES). However, he suggested that
the bill be amended to a related issue, which is when there are
illegal trespass roads that are created across state lands. The
amendment should direct the Department of Natural Resources to
close illegal roads that are created by bulldozing across state
lands, unless a process is determined that they should be opened.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN said he would work with the bill's sponsor and staff
to look at his suggested amendment. He then stated CSHB 447(RES)
would be set aside and carried over until the next day.
SB 285 DISCRETE SALMON STOCK MANAGMNT & ASSESSMT
CHAIRMAN LEMAN brought SB 285 before the committee as the next
order of business.
DAN CASTLE , testified from Ketchikan on his own behalf, as well as
president of the Southeast Alaska Seiners Association, which
unanimously opposes SB 285. They disagree with the first paragraph
in the bill which suggests that a discrete salmon stock management
policy could possibly be consistent with the sustained yield of
wild salmon stock. He said there are over 2,000 salmon bearing
streams in Alaska, and to try to individually manage each of those
stocks would be nearly impossible and a very expensive proposition.
He noted the bill carries a fiscal note of $1.7 million.
TAPE 96-53, SIDE A
Number 001
Continuing his testimony, Mr. Castle referred to paragraph (2) on
page 2 which discusses non-Alaska stock originating elsewhere in
North America, and he said their association does not think that is
the type of thing that the Alaska Department of Fish & Game should
be looking at. Although some of that is research through the U.S.-
Canada Pacific Salmon Commission process, interpreting and managing
Alaska's fishery for those other stocks is something that's taken
up in another forum.
Mr. Castle stated he would be submitting written testimony for the
committee record on SB 285.
DAN WINN , testifying from Homer in opposition to SB 285, stated he
doesn't think it is a good idea for legislators to try to run fish
and game. He said they are doing that in Washington State and
California and they are ruining the fisheries.
Mr. Winn said one of the main points is that this is a tax, and it
could cost as much as $50 million to try to implement it. Also, it
is definitely taxes for one segment of the population that would be
going into the general fund. He suggested that if this is going to
done, then charter operators should also pay their way, as well as
the sport fishermen who aren't Alaskans.
MS. LIZ CABRERA , Director of the Petersburg Vessel Owners
Association testifying from Petersburg, voiced their opposition to
any attempt to significantly alter the way the state manages the
salmon fishery, as well as the provisions contained in SB 285. She
urged defeat of the legislation.
LEONARD EFTA , testifying from Kenai, stated he has one major
opposition to SB 285. He said if it's followed to its logical
conclusion, it is going to eliminate the drift fisherman, and he is
a drift fisherman. He added that he is not opposed to the
provision relating to genetic identification because he thinks that
as a fisherman it will benefit him.
Number 090
SAM MCDOWELL , testifying from Kenai, voiced his support for SB 285,
which he believes is necessary, basing his decision on the Cook
Inlet area. He pointed out that in 1951 there were 187,511 king
salmon harvested in upper Cook Inlet and 20 years later only 8,465
kings were harvested. Also, the sockeye salmon in the northern
district are being totally depleted because they are not making it
up there.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked him if all of the sockeye that were bound for
the northern district had not been harvested and had gone on
through, what that number would have been. MR. MCDOWELL responded
that when Carl Rosier closed the drift fleet down for two fishing
periods, they almost made the complete escapement, so it proves
those fish are being intercepted.
DALE BONDURANT , testifying from Kenai, said he cannot understand
the opposition to SB 285 by anyone who truly supports a sustained
yield principle. At the recent hearing, he listened to the
testimony of some commercial fishermen that were adamantly opposed
to discrete stock management because it would cost them, which only
proves they are too interested in bottom line profits today. He
said if the state waited for commercial fishermen to demand maximum
sustained yield for all stocks in waters, it would never happen.
Number 170
LEONARD HAIRE , testifying from the Mat-Su LIO, stated his support
for SB 285 because he believe the Board of Fish is not doing the
proper job to put the fish in the creek. He cited, as an example,
a biologist who earlier this year put in a proposal to close silver
fishing in the 20 Mile and Placer River areas, the reasoning being
that it could be a problem in the future if more people go down
there to enjoy the fishery. In his options for how to cure this
problem, not one was to put more fish in the river. Mr. Haire said
he thinks for them not to even consider this is one of the reasons
why SB 285 is needed.
ROY BURKHART , testifying from the Mat-Su LIO in support of SB 285,
said recently the Board of Fish gave the authority to Fish & Game
that they should stop fishing, even bank fish. The reason for that
was to protect the habitat and to let the stock rebuild. However,
this is not going to work unless the fish get into the river. He
said it is time that everybody address this problem and allow the
fish to get into the river so that everybody can enjoy them. He
noted that on the Deshka River they haven't been able to fish for
kings for a couple of years because the kings are just not
returning.
Number 270
There being no additional witnesses to testify on SB 285, CHAIRMAN
LEMAN stated it would be held until the following day for further
action.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN recessed the meeting at 6:15 p.m. to 10:00 a.m.,
April 13.
TAPE 96-54
Number 001
CHAIRMAN LEMAN called the April 12 meeting back to order at 10:13
a.m. on April 13. However, due to the lack of a quorum, he stated
the committee would stand in recess until 1:00 p.m.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN called the Senate Resources committee back to order
at 2:10 p.m. He noted the presence of Senator Taylor and himself,
and said other committee members would be arriving shortly.
CSHB 547(RES) am MORATORIUM ON S.E. DIVE FISHERIES
CHAIRMAN LEMAN brought CSHB 547(RES) am back before the committee.
He noted that Michael Byrer, Caley McCay and Andy Kittams of
Petersburg were standing by on the teleconference network waiting
to testify on the bill. He then asked the three gentlemen if they
were in favor of the legislation, because it was his intent to move
the bill as soon as a quorum was established. It was acknowledged
that the three men are in support of CSHB 547(RES) am.
CSHB 546(RES) am was set aside until a quorum of the committee
could be established.
SB 318 NORTH STAR OIL & GAS LEASE AMENDMENT
CHAIRMAN LEMAN brought SB 318 before the committee as the next
order of business.
[THE HEARING ON SB 318 WAS TRANSCRIBED VERBATIM AS A SEPARATE
DOCUMENT DATED 4/13/96]
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